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Breaking the Silence

There is a difference in standard of proof between what's required for a guilty verdict in a courtroom and what's required in order for someone to step down/ be fired from a position or being discussed in a negative light in an article in the press.
So it's not either "enough for a guilty verdict in a court room" or "basically a witch hunt", but it can be in between the two.

People step down due to an outcry by the public all the time. Politicians quit when a scandal breaks or CEOs lose their job for stuff that may be far below the threshold of what holds up in a court room. This doesn't mean that it is a witch hunt, but it is part of the normal democratic process. Can this be unfair? Yes, absolutely. Is it always unfair? No, absolutely not.

Another example might be all the steps that are taken before a defendant in a court of law can be sentenced. They might be arrested for example or even stay in jail until the case starts, which is a severe limitation of their freedom, all before having been sentenced by a court. Is this undemocratic? No, it's actually the standard process. Is it possible that the accused will be acquitted and so had their freedom curtailed unnecessarily while being innocent? Yes, absolutely. In fact, the presumption of innocence in a way implies that this is the default situation.

Obviously the situation discussed in this article is again different from that and I'm not trying to argue that it is the same as either of these examples, I'm merely pointing this out as a counter-argument to those who keep bringing up evidentiary standards used in court rooms.

As for the argument that there was no evidence at all: Witness statements _are_ evidence. They are also accepted as a valid type of evidence in a court of law.

Is it true that if you lower the evidentiary standard for taking action, it is more likely that wrong or unfair decisions are made? It seems hard to deny. Does this mean that it is illegitimate to ask for consequences that have serious repercussions for the careers of accused people before they are convicted in a court of law? Not necessarily.
@svensp -- Yes, you are correct that the standard of proof is different in court vs. other forums.

However, let's start with this: please point to me in the Lichess article where even ONE WITNESS, to even ONE alleged incident is mentioned. Please.

The only time the word "witness" is mentioned in the article is here:

> Last year, US Chess commissioned a third-party review of its response to reports about Ramirez. But we only know three things about the review: (1) it was completed before 24 May, when US Chess released their final statement on Ramirez; (2) according to US Chess, it concluded that “the US Chess response was timely and appropriate regarding the reports it received about Ramirez’s conduct;” and (3) it will not be published for WITNESS confidentiality reasons.

(word "witness" capitalized above for emphasis)

---

Also, please explain what you make of this declaration by USCF?

> US Chess launched an investigation in late 2022 when it received formal complaints from two individuals alleging sexual misconduct by GM Alejandro Ramirez. The primary focus of this investigation was to determine when US Chess had knowledge of the various allegations and what responsive actions US Chess took. The third party, independent investigation is complete, and, based on the information received, the third party concluded that the US Chess response was timely and appropriate regarding the reports it received about Ramirez’s conduct.
@svensp said in #593:
> There is a difference in standard of proof between what's required for a guilty verdict in a courtroom and what's required in order for someone to step down/ be fired from a position or being discussed in a negative light in an article in the press.
> So it's not either "enough for a guilty verdict in a court room" or "basically a witch hunt", but it can be in between the two.
>

Media these days is politically driven and has an ideologic agenda behind it with ZERO interest in the truth. Exempli gratia: the article above. Pages and pages of how women were abused X years ago and their allegations. ONE LINE for the men's point of view (where they say this is all hearsay and rumours).

One reason a trial is needed, even if nothing comes of it, is that both parties get to say their version of events. I think you will agree with me when I say that no news outlet will EVER interview Ramirez. It would be suicide for them.

My humble opinion: Lichess has no interest in the well-being of these women. If it did, it would have offered to help them in some form. All it cared for was to stir public opinion and virtue signal for attention. So it just "stopped collaboration" with a few people. Whatever that means. They didn't even ban them.

The justice system, for all its flaws and problems, is a far better judge than the "media" system. Care should be taken so as not to allow the news to dictate who should be ruined and for what. How many more Johnny Depps does the world need before it can see this, I truly wonder.
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@Pashut said in #594:
> @svensp -- Yes, you are correct that the standard of proof is different in court vs. other forums.
>
> However, let's start with this: please point to me in the Lichess article where even ONE WITNESS, to even ONE alleged incident is mentioned. Please.

Sure, there are several instances where witnesses are mentioned:

- "One woman provided the following account to Lichess"
- "The other woman’s account alleges that"
- there are also links to posts by Jennifer Shahade, where she makes statements with regard to alleged incidents, linked in the timeline
@svensp said in #599:
> Sure, there are several instances where witnesses are mentioned:
>
> - "One woman provided the following account to Lichess"
> - "The other woman’s account alleges that"
> - there are also links to posts by Jennifer Shahade, where she makes statements with regard to alleged incidents, linked in the timeline

Wow, so now the acusers themselves are witnesses?!? Are you for real, man? ROFL

Why do we even bother, why do we talk about investigations etc.?
I allege you raped me, and I call myself as a witness to testify on my own behalf that it was so.
Case closed.

Do you even know the difference between (alleged) victims and (independent) witnesses?
@darius_h said in #596:
> Media these days is politically driven and has an ideologic agenda behind it with ZERO interest in the truth. Exempli gratia: the article above. Pages and pages of how women were abused X years ago and their allegations. ONE LINE for the men's point of view (where they say this is all hearsay and rumours).

That media is politically involved isn't exactly a new development, nor a secret, I think. The owners, editors and journalists are all human being with interests that to a greater or lesser extent influence what is written and what is printed. It was like this a hundred years ago, it is like this still today. This, in my opinion, doesn't mean that there is no interest in truth or that there cannot be standards.

My point still stands - in a healthy democracy it is normal that significant consequences occur based on things that would never ever be sufficient for a conviction in court. When a football coach is being fired, I've never, not once, heard the line of reasoning, "but this wouldn't hold up in a court, they shouldn't fire the guy".

It is not unusual to report things based on allegations, as long as it is pointed out that these are allegations and the point of view of the people accused of wrongdoing is given a fair hearing.

>
> One reason a trial is needed, even if nothing comes of it, is that both parties get to say their version of events. I think you will agree with me when I say that no news outlet will EVER interview Ramirez. It would be suicide for them.

I'm not sure I agree with you on that point.

>
> My humble opinion: Lichess has no interest in the well-being of these women. If it did, it would have offered to help them in some form. All it cared for was to stir public opinion and virtue signal for attention. So it just "stopped collaboration" with a few people. Whatever that means. They didn't even ban them.

I think by offering a platform to these women and amplifying their accusations, lichess is supportive of them and has helped them.

>
> The justice system, for all its flaws and problems, is a far better judge than the "media" system. Care should be taken so as not to allow the news to dictate who should be ruined and for what. How many more Johnny Depps does the world need before it can see this, I truly wonder.

I agree that the justice system has a higher standard of evidence. I disagree with the point of view that this means that other decision forums are somehow problematic.

The main reason why a court in criminal law operates on "beyond reasonable doubt" standard is because of the severe consequences of its decisions and the massive power inequality between the state and an accused individual.

In general going by the lower standard of "on the balance of probabilities" isn't problematic as such, but comments on this piece again and again argue with the supposed need to use that higher standard.

Judging by the balance of probabilities - i.e. what we think is more likely to have happened based on what we have in front of us in statements or other evidence - is entirely normal and not inherently problematic. I think even in civil litigation in some countries you can have judgement based on the balance of probabilities and there can be severe consequences from the outcomes of these judgements as well.

You can be wrong and you can damage people unfairly, that is true and it's easier this happens, the lower the standard for evidence is, that's true as well. It's also true that there are often unhealthy dynamics at play and there _can_ be witch-hunt like dynamics. There can however also be a culture of not believing accusers on principle (irrationally), just as there can be a tendency to overly and unquestioningly believe them. Overall, I think both happen regularly, but that the irrational non-believing on principle is the more dominant one. Both are deeply problematic.

Where reputations are severely and unfairly damaged, there is always the option to sue for slander etc. But fundamentally, public debate, even where it concerns potentially illegal behavior doesn't follow the same rules as those governing a court of law and it shouldn't have to.
Lichess be like: Breaking The Silence!

Some males: Silence is Golden!
@Sarg0n said in #602:
> Lichess be like: Breaking The Silence!
>
> Some males: Silence is Golden!

Specially when we silence only one side and the friends of the king stay safe.

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